Is it ever advisable to submit 4 LORs?
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:02 am
Has anyone done it? Of course, there would have to be a good reason to do it.
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I took his reco a) because hes very senior and somewhat famous and b) his course was one of the toughest we've had and I spent a lot of time discussing problems with himInquilineKea wrote:Did the prof whose course you did well in know you well?
Same here. I submitted 4 letters for almost all schools except for the ones (Cornell!!*) that don't allow you to submit more than three letters on the application system. I have done research in three different labs, so each of the advisors wrote one letter. I also have a letter from a class professor who knows me really well.SPat wrote:Did that for all my reaches (and got in most of them). I had 2 from summer project advisors, 1 from ug faculty advisor and 1 from a prof whose class I did well in.
However, some places (eg. Cornell) don't allow you to submit more than 3.
If the school allows 4 and none of the 4 are just acting as filler (i.e. they are all truly complimentary in describing your research potential) then do it.InquilineKea wrote:Has anyone done it? Of course, there would have to be a good reason to do it.
And many that say they accept four only read 3. So make sure that you put them in the order of importance.HappyQuark wrote:If the school allows 4 and none of the 4 are just acting as filler (i.e. they are all truly complimentary in describing your research potential) then do it.InquilineKea wrote:Has anyone done it? Of course, there would have to be a good reason to do it.
With that said, I've found that many schools (probably half of the schools I applied to) restrict you to 3 LORs.
Look. The 4th recommendation at many schools is "just in case" something happens and one of your top three can't send in a recommendation. 3 people is more than enough to vouch for you. I had a reason to believe that one of my recommenders might not manage to send out recommendations to all of the schools (and in fact didn't), so I sent a fourth. But only as a backup. There were people I worked with early in my undergraduate years who I didn't bother asking; there wasn't anything for them to add other than to also say "he's a hard worker who finds intelligent solutions" a fourth time.WhoaNonstop wrote:For the average student, I would stick to three letters. Even for SPat, I'm sure the reasons he received acceptance to the reach schools were based on the rest of his application, not solely because of the extra letter. Unless you have worked under 4 different people who can greatly attest to your research experience, I wouldn't submit more than three.
-Riley
negru wrote:I wouldn't send any recs who only talk about you doing well in a class. Doing well in a class is pretty much a requirement for grad school. Research recs will get you get you good points.
Look. It's most reasonable to assume that the OP was referring to having 4 LORs submitted with the intention of having all 4 reviewed. If you are submitting 4 with the understanding that only 3 will actually be reviewed (due to a flaky professor or some other issue) then in essence you really only submitted 3 LORs anyways.bfollinprm wrote:Look. The 4th recommendation at many schools is "just in case" something happens and one of your top three can't send in a recommendation. 3 people is more than enough to vouch for you. I had a reason to believe that one of my recommenders might not manage to send out recommendations to all of the schools (and in fact didn't), so I sent a fourth. But only as a backup. There were people I worked with early in my undergraduate years who I didn't bother asking; there wasn't anything for them to add other than to also say "he's a hard worker who finds intelligent solutions" a fourth time.WhoaNonstop wrote:For the average student, I would stick to three letters. Even for SPat, I'm sure the reasons he received acceptance to the reach schools were based on the rest of his application, not solely because of the extra letter. Unless you have worked under 4 different people who can greatly attest to your research experience, I wouldn't submit more than three.
-Riley
Edit: Then again, what do I know. I seem to have been shut out of the top 15 schools, so maybe my way isn't the best way. Maybe I'm not hearing back from U Michigan because the CME professor I worked with when I was 17 didn't write me a letter.
My point is hardly anyone looks at 4. The option for the 4th is simply because sometimes bad things happen, and they want your application complete if it does.HappyQuark wrote:
Look. It's most reasonable to assume that the OP was referring to having 4 LORs submitted with the intention of having all 4 reviewed. If you are submitting 4 with the understanding that only 3 will actually be reviewed (due to a flaky professor or some other issue) then in essence you really only submitted 3 LORs anyways.
The way you responded to Riley, (i.e. starting the sentence with "Look.") made it sound like you were disagreeing with him or something. I think we all agree that 3 LORs is preferable for all but the most exceptional of students.bfollinprm wrote:My point is hardly anyone looks at 4. The option for the 4th is simply because sometimes bad things happen, and they want your application complete if it does.HappyQuark wrote:
Look. It's most reasonable to assume that the OP was referring to having 4 LORs submitted with the intention of having all 4 reviewed. If you are submitting 4 with the understanding that only 3 will actually be reviewed (due to a flaky professor or some other issue) then in essence you really only submitted 3 LORs anyways.
I quoted riley because my comments went with his. I wasn't really responding to him (I could never disagree with the second coming of rg). I always respond with the intention of answering the OP, unless I'm making a joke.HappyQuark wrote:The way you responded to Riley, (i.e. starting the sentence with "Look.") made it sound like you were disagreeing with him or something. I think we all agree that 3 LORs is preferable for all but the most exceptional of students.bfollinprm wrote:My point is hardly anyone looks at 4. The option for the 4th is simply because sometimes bad things happen, and they want your application complete if it does.HappyQuark wrote:
Look. It's most reasonable to assume that the OP was referring to having 4 LORs submitted with the intention of having all 4 reviewed. If you are submitting 4 with the understanding that only 3 will actually be reviewed (due to a flaky professor or some other issue) then in essence you really only submitted 3 LORs anyways.
I totally agree with having a 4th letter as a backup, but I had the feeling the original poster was asking if there was any reason to submit 4 letters that the committee would indefinitely read. However, if you're certain your 3 recommendation writers will get them done on time, I don't see a need for a 4th letter.bfollinprm wrote:Look. The 4th recommendation at many schools is "just in case" something happens and one of your top three can't send in a recommendation. 3 people is more than enough to vouch for you. I had a reason to believe that one of my recommenders might not manage to send out recommendations to all of the schools (and in fact didn't), so I sent a fourth. But only as a backup. There were people I worked with early in my undergraduate years who I didn't bother asking; there wasn't anything for them to add other than to also say "he's a hard worker who finds intelligent solutions" a fourth time.
Edit: Then again, what do I know. I seem to have been shut out of the top 15 schools, so maybe my way isn't the best way. Maybe I'm not hearing back from U Michigan because the CME professor I worked with when I was 17 didn't write me a letter.
Eh, it's still relative to the school though. One of my recommendation writers for REUs in the past who was chair for 40 years always wrote how I was easily in the top 1% of students he had ever taught. Considering there are only 3-5 students who graduate with a physics degree from my undergraduate university, this statement doesn't hold much weight (it is also very rare that anyone goes on to graduate school). I think in general, people should have research mentors write their letters if possible.bfollinprm wrote:Just for clarification, I'm talking about someone who can say "[student] ranked in the top [x]% of the [y]thousand students I've seen graduate from this department.
So how do you respond to someone in a forum if they aren't the OP? Why do you not use the universal convention of quoting the person you're responding to rather than quoting a person who said something similar to what you are about to say?bfollinprm wrote: I quoted riley because my comments went with his. I wasn't really responding to him (I could never disagree with the second coming of rg). I always respond with the intention of answering the OP, unless I'm making a joke.
I don't see how you would conclude that having 4 exceptional LORs would be less beneficial than 3 exceptional LORs. If you did significant research for 4 groups and get to have 4 world class physicists attest to your awesomeness, why would you instead only use 3 of those? I argued, and I believe Riley suggested this aswell, that if you have 4 exceptional LORs, use them. If, however, you are like most people and any 4th LOR you could muster would just be some professor you had a class from, then skip it because it isn't valuable and will most likely be viewed as unnecessary fluff.bfollinprm wrote:And I think for even exceptional cases, a fourth recommendation is not really a good idea. The only instance where it should even be considered is if you have 4 papers with 4 different groups, or if you have 3 and took a class with a nobel prize winner. And in these cases, I would argue that adding another professor's comments about your research is redundant; just go with the most recent/most applicable to your interests in grad school. But, like I said before, don't take my word as gospel; I think my applications underachieved a bit (at least so far).
Mmm, now that you mention it I should have had a 4th recommendation writer... myself. I mean, who can attest to such greatness except thou art?HappyQuark wrote:will most likely be viewed as unnecessary fluff.
@ HQ, I'm sorry for frustrating you. I've just always felt that a comment that only applies to one other person doesn't belong on a forum (unless it adds some humor). If I think I can add to the conversation, I do it. If quoting someone helps tie my perspective into the overall conversation, I quote.HappyQuark wrote:
So how do you respond to someone in a forum if they aren't the OP? Why do you not use the universal convention of quoting the person your responding to rather than quoting a person who said something similar to what you are about to say?
I don't see how you would conclude that having 4 exceptional LORs would be less beneficial than 3 exceptional LORs. If you did significant research for 4 groups and get to have 4 world class physicists attest to your awesomeness, why would you instead only use 3 of those? I argued, and I believe Riley suggested this aswell, that if you have 4 exceptional LORs, use them.bfollinprm wrote:And I think for even exceptional cases, a fourth recommendation is not really a good idea.
TheBeast wrote:In the case where a student has something lacking in their profile, an additional stellar recommendation may be useful. The worst thing that happens is that it doesn't get read. Actually, I take that back. The worst thing would be that you send 4, three of which are wicked-awesome and 1 is lukewarm and one of the wicked-awesome ones are ignored. So, sending 4 might only be a good idea if you are certain that all four are amazing references of approximately equal amazingness.
I think that a better approach, if you have 4 or more reference writers, would be to use them selectively depending on which schools you're applying to. It's been said that committees may put additional weight on references from people that they know personally or know of. Figuring out where your references' word may have the greatest influence should play some part in deciding who to ask amongst those 4.
It still seems a bit overkill to send an extra rec just because of one grade. Pretty sure that if a prof is willing to write tens of recs just to explain a grade he would've been willing to cut you some slack when you took the course to improve your grade.bfollinprm wrote:TheBeast wrote:In the case where a student has something lacking in their profile, an additional stellar recommendation may be useful. The worst thing that happens is that it doesn't get read. Actually, I take that back. The worst thing would be that you send 4, three of which are wicked-awesome and 1 is lukewarm and one of the wicked-awesome ones are ignored. So, sending 4 might only be a good idea if you are certain that all four are amazing references of approximately equal amazingness.
I think that a better approach, if you have 4 or more reference writers, would be to use them selectively depending on which schools you're applying to. It's been said that committees may put additional weight on references from people that they know personally or know of. Figuring out where your references' word may have the greatest influence should play some part in deciding who to ask amongst those 4.
TheBeast is right (I think), and so I take what I said back. I could see using 4 recs if all of the following were true
(1) you had a hole in your transcript (like a C in a class or something)
(2) There were really good reasons for that hole
(3) A professor (who taught you that class) who doesn't have much else to add offers to write a letter to cover that hole
(4) You are 100% sure that all 4 of your recs will be read
Negru is partially correct. One poor grade in an early course doesn't much matter (especially if it's a C. If it's an F, that's different). But if it's in a more advanced course, and there is a very good excuse, then the committee will want to know the excuse. Whether it comes from a LOR or is mentioned in the SOP is irrelevant--the SOP is a much easier place for it.negru wrote: It still seems a bit overkill to send an extra rec just because of one grade. Pretty sure that if a prof is willing to write tens of recs just to explain a grade he would've been willing to cut you some slack when you took the course to improve your grade.
And anyway no reason no matter how good will make a bad grade go away. If you did well in more advanced courses no one is going to care about that individual grade. If they care about GPA an explanation for the grade will not do you any good. No one will try to convert excuses to hundredths of points.
If Prof X didn't know you well enough to write a good letter of recommendation, why would Prof X be offering to vouch for you to a friend? If an offer like that is on the table, it seems like Prof X should be writing you a LoR.InquilineKea wrote:Certainly, professor X might not know you well enough to write you a good recommendation.
I had professors offer to give phone calls similar to this. I just included their email as a reference when I sent out feelers to POIs at schools.astrok wrote:If Prof X didn't know you well enough to write a good letter of recommendation, why would Prof X be offering to vouch for you to a friend? If an offer like that is on the table, it seems like Prof X should be writing you a LoR.InquilineKea wrote:Certainly, professor X might not know you well enough to write you a good recommendation.
According to UrbanDictionary.com, one interpretation...InquilineKea wrote:Wow, what does "feeler" mean?
You know what they say, better to be a kid in the brain than a kid in the pants...negru wrote:Don't worry about it too much. We're all kids in our hearts. You just happen to be in the brain too
I'm not sure who "they" are but I'm going to go ahead and join "them" in saying it.WhoaNonstop wrote:You know what they say, better to be a kid in the brain than a kid in the pants...negru wrote:Don't worry about it too much. We're all kids in our hearts. You just happen to be in the brain too
-Riley