The economy and grad school

nathan12343
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The economy and grad school

Postby nathan12343 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:35 am

So a post on cosmic variance (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/01/09/graduate-applications-and-the-economy/) has gotten me thinking about how the state of the economy will affect graduate admissions, see also an interesting plot on PhD comics: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1078.

I'm curious whether your thinking either the number of schools or kind of schools you'd be applying to was affected by the economy. Personally, I'm not sure, living in a relatively well off college town with a job at a research lab has more or less insulated me from the sinking ship that is wall street. On the other hand, the prospect of looking for a job in this climate is kind of scary, it will be nice not to have to think about it if I get accepted.

PoincareSection
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby PoincareSection » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:47 am

I've been wondering about this too. Personally, I think if the number of applicants were to increase, it would happen next year when the graduating seniors realize they can't get a job. Also, I think engineering programs will be way more affected by this than physics or astronomy departments.

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dlenmn
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dlenmn » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:49 am

The effect shown in the PhD comic is a well known phenomena. The cause needn't be as direct as people thinking, "the economy is crummy, so I'll just apply to grad school." It could be that many people apply both for jobs and to graduate schools (regardless of the state of the economy), and the latter doesn't pan out due to the economy, so people do the former.

Usually, there usually isn't a lag between the economy going south and graduate school applications going up (in some cases, it's even the opposite -- just look at the graph in the comic), but there is good evidence that graduate school applications are down this year. Granted, that number includes all graduate applications, and some (like MBA) might have reason to decline (you need to borrow lots of $$$, which is harder to do right now), but perhaps the decline is more widespread.

I know that, when asked about my future, I'd joke that if I didn't make it as a physicist, I could always get a job on Wall Street (since they used to hire all too many physic PhDs). Obviously, that's not going to work so well (at least for a while). Maybe this is more of a serious thought for some people (see the section titled For whom does academic science as a career make sense?).

Also, due to the budget problems that many school are having, there may be fewer acceptances. So fewer applications may not mean a better chance for getting in.

dsperka
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dsperka » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:29 pm

Wow, that sure was depressing. Maybe if I don't get into Grad School it will be the best thing that ever happened to me.

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trani
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby trani » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:21 pm

Haha, dsperka, I thought the exact same thing!

Unfortunately I think I have picked my list of schools in a way to guarantee a high chance of at least one acceptance...

surjective
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby surjective » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:03 pm

I go to a top-5 school, and our department secretary mentioned the other day that they have gotten about 35% more applications than last year, which was pretty average for the past decade. The past few years they had about 700 applications for around 30 spots, and this year it's over 900 applications for the same number of spots.

So there is definitely an effect right now.

That being said, if you're a good candidate, you should still have no trouble.

Best of luck to everyone!

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dlenmn
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dlenmn » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:40 pm

dsperka wrote:Wow, that sure was depressing. Maybe if I don't get into Grad School it will be the best thing that ever happened to me.


Are you referring to the Philip Greenspun piece? Yeah, it's not cheery, but it's not really telling you anything you didn't already know: most of us don't have a future in academia (it's hard to argue with the calculus -- each prof at a graduate institution trains many PhD students but there is only one spot when the prof retires).

That doesn't mean that a PhD isn't worth pursing -- just that you should do so with open eyes.

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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dsperka » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:37 pm

I know that it won't ever be easy to get a Professorship, but that guy made it seem like pursuing a PhD in science, actually just getting a bachelors degree in science, is the worst thing that you could possibly ever do. According to his article, there are no jobs in physics outside academia except for weapons manufacturing. I know this isn't true. I take that article with a huge grain of salt.

nathan12343
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby nathan12343 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:40 pm

Aren't there corporate headhunters that specifically look for people with science PhD's, in physics and astrophysics in particular? I like to think that if a career in science doesn't work out, I won't have too much trouble getting a job in some other technical field, there's always fewer programmers than there are jobs in programming, for example.

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dlenmn
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dlenmn » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:46 am

He address Industry jobs at the end. He never claims that such jobs don't exist, just that they're not worth spending 5+ years in grad school to get. I don't know if this is true, but I'd bet few of us have really looked in to it. Also, there are few "22-year-olds earning $150,000 per year selling home mortgages" nowadays, so his comparison may be less relevant today.

dsperka wrote:that guy made it seem like ... getting a bachelors degree in science, is the worst thing that you could possibly ever do.


Where did he imply that in the article? I don't think he did. BSes are undeniably useful. They author got one. It's just the PhD which he believes to not be worth it. And it seems pretty clear that he doesn't regard a PhD as a horrible thing, just not a good use of time for the payoff (he has one and doesn't seem the worse for it). I don't agree with his conclusions (I like it here -- money be damned for now), but he makes some good points (mostly with regard to academia) which are worth thinking about. I think his thoughts regarding industry are less good (but still worth thinking about).

When I was looking at schools, I made a point of asking professors where their students ended up. Most of them ended up -- sometimes after a postdoc or two -- with some sort of technical job outside of academia (although there were a fair share of jobs which were not really technical, like Wall Street, lawyers of the non-patent variety, actuaries, etc.). What's not clear to me was how many of these jobs were only accessible to people with a PhD (as opposed to another degree like a BE or MS). It's something I'll have to investigate more later, but my impression is that some did not require PhDs.

dsperka
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dsperka » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:30 am

I'm definitely inferring a great deal. But I at least hope you agree that the entire article can be summed up as "Getting a PhD in science is irrational decision that could ruin your life, therefore men are more likely to do it."

I guess most of us (guys) are the romantic, irrational, and stubborn ones hes referring too. Is it romantic to want to spend 6 years of your life doing the one thing you are truly passionate about rather than starting your career? Maybe it is, I guess we're both romantics. But I don't think that its so irrational, only if rationality is based on personal income. I guess I am sort of taking offense to these types of claims in his article. I consider myself very rational, and know exactly what I'd be getting myself into with grad school. Whoever got a PhD in physics to make it rich sort of deserves to get burned.

I also don't agree much with his stance on academia. Sure not every PhD will get tenure, but take a look at this webpage http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/highlite/emp3/emphigh.htm for a less sensationalized account of what a PhD might lead to.

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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby cato88 » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:35 am

I would agree the point is
"Getting a PhD in science is irrational decision , therefore men are more likely to do it."
not
"Getting a PhD in science is irrational decision that could ruin your life, therefore men are more likely to do it."

I also think by saying
dsperka wrote:I consider myself very rational, and know exactly what I'd be getting myself into with grad school. Whoever got a PhD in physics to make it rich sort of deserves to get burned.

Your kind of helping to prove his point because you might have a change of heart when you decide to have a family as he mentions in the article.

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dlenmn
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dlenmn » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:06 pm

dsperka wrote:only if rationality is based on personal income.


He address things other than income.

dsperka wrote:I also don't agree much with his stance on academia. Sure not every PhD will get tenure, but take a look at this webpage http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/highlite/emp3/emphigh.htm for a less sensationalized account of what a PhD might lead to.


The AIP data doesn't fully address his claims, and what parts it does address, it seems to support his claims. He says you will go through a postdoc. The AIP data says that you will go through a postdoc (76% of PhDs looking for an academic job do). The AIP data you posted says nothing about what happens after that. How many people get potentially permanent academic positions after a postdoc(s)? How many get tenure? There is data available, and it isn't so great (I think there's data available for the first question as well, but there's no real need to crunch the numbers this way to find your odds. There's another way to do it that I've hinted at before).

If anything, the AIP data backs up his claims about us being irrational romantics. 59% of us aspire to an academic job. For reasons stated earlier, that simply isn't possible. Many more PhDs are given out than there are professors to replace:

David Goodstein wrote:The average American professor in a research university turns out about 15 Ph.D students in the course of a career. In a stable, steady-state world of science, only one of those 15 can go on to become another professor in a research university. In a steady-state world, it is mathematically obvious that the professor's only reproductive role is to produce one professor for the next generation.


(From another piece worth reading.)

59% of us want academic jobs (and take up postdocs to that end). Maybe 10% of us can get them (there are academic jons outside of research universities). I'll leave the obvious (and already stated) conclusions as an exercise to the reader. QED

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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dsperka » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:43 pm

@ dlenm:

I think you are missing my point. Like I said, I agree that academic jobs are not easy to come by. I am only trying to say that the original article takes an extremely one sided stance on the question "Should one pursue a PhD in science?". It says that the only time it makes sense is if you are an extremely poor student from a third world country. Come on. A PhD has more options than he relates. According to those AIP statistics, 60% are choosing academia. That is a majority, but 40% is hardly rare. And look: http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/highlite/emp3/table5.htm 96% said the PhD was the right backgroud, and 89% found their job challenging! So yes, I agree tenure is very very hard, but there are other options.

@ cato88:

Deciding to have a family is something all of us might face. Heck, I might decide that I want to be a pilot for all I know. The problem of a change of heart is not unique to someone in a PhD program. Its not against the law to quit before finishing, either, if you really wanted to.

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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby cato88 » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:50 pm

dsperka wrote:Deciding to have a family is something all of us might face. Heck, I might decide that I want to be a pilot for all I know. The problem of a change of heart is not unique to someone in a PhD program. Its not against the law to quit before finishing, either, if you really wanted to.

But if you quit you would have wasted a few years of your life in which you could have saved money to buy a house, retirement...

dsperka wrote:Come on. A PhD has more options than he relates. According to those AIP statistics, 60% are choosing academia. That is a majority, but 40% is hardly rare. And look: http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/hi ... table5.htm 96% said the PhD was the right backgroud, and 89% found their job challenging! So yes, I agree tenure is very very hard, but there are other options.

This doesnt really disprove his point because he does mention you could get a job but he also mentions that its very likely you could have received that job with just a bachelors. Even when the 96% said PhD was the right background it doesnt really tell you much because there is no further information. They could possibly mean that a PhD has helped them become better learners nobody knows. I completely understand your point of view but its based on a romantic notion and though I understand Im falling behind in terms of saving and other rational economic reasons and would have a long disheartening road if I pursued academia, all I can do is hope the negatives are minimized and follow that romantic notion like a boy in love with an abusive girlfriend. In a way you should feel lucky to go to grad school during a recession.

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Andromeda
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby Andromeda » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:38 am

I think that articles mistake is assuming that everyone who wants a PhD wants to be a professor, and everyone who doesn't "fails" somehow in their goal. I find this very odd because I know several people who want to go into industry with their Physics PhD once they get it! I do think physics as a field does a terrible job advertising all the things you can do with the degree however- it's a wonderfully versatile one, just looking at what all my graduating classmates plan to do alone.

dsperka wrote:I guess most of us (guys) are the romantic, irrational, and stubborn ones hes referring too. Is it romantic to want to spend 6 years of your life doing the one thing you are truly passionate about rather than starting your career? Maybe it is, I guess we're both romantics. But I don't think that its so irrational, only if rationality is based on personal income. I guess I am sort of taking offense to these types of claims in his article. I consider myself very rational, and know exactly what I'd be getting myself into with grad school. Whoever got a PhD in physics to make it rich sort of deserves to get burned.


I thought us women were supposed to be the hopelessly irrational, romantic ones? Or have I been hearing my stereotypes wrong? :wink:

(Actually, I saw a study once showing that women in physics drop out at each stage- PhD, postdoc, tenure, etc- at the same rate men do. It's just there are fewer women who start off in physics to begin with.)

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dlenmn
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dlenmn » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:56 am

dsperka wrote:I am only trying to say that the original article takes an extremely one sided stance on the question "Should one pursue a PhD in science?". It says that the only time it makes sense is if you are an extremely poor student from a third world country. Come on.


I agree with you and not with his conclusion about who it makes sense for (after all, I am a graduate student from the good old US of A -- I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it is a good idea).

dsperka wrote:A PhD has more options than he relates. According to those AIP statistics, 60% are choosing academia. That is a majority, but 40% is hardly rare. And look: http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/highlite/emp3/table5.htm 96% said the PhD was the right backgroud, and 89% found their job challenging! So yes, I agree tenure is very very hard, but there are other options.


Again, were are in partial agreement. I don't really buy what he says about jobs in Industry. That said, I still am not convinced that a PhD is really needed for all of those jobs (many physics PhDs end up working as glorified engineers -- so perhaps a lower engineering degree would be just as good). The statistic you cite does not really address my concern (it does not say that a physics PhD is the only appropriate background).

The part of the article I think makes sense is the part about academia. Given that the majority of us (60%) want an academic job, but few of us (~10%) will be able to get one (especially depending on where we go to grad school -- yes, another controversial piece that was discussed last year... apparently I'm not smart enough to stop), this is kind of a big deal.
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dlenmn
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dlenmn » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:10 am

Andromeda wrote:I think that articles mistake is assuming that everyone who wants a PhD wants to be a professor, and everyone who doesn't "fails" somehow in their goal.


I think you misinterpret the article, but for the record most people getting physics PhDs do want to be professors (see the AIP statistics dsperka linked to).

The author of the article primarily talks about the academic side of things (probably for that reason). He addresses industry jobs separately. Where does he imply that working in industry equates to failing? Interestingly enough, this is a point of view you find most often in academia. I think the author talks about industry without that prejudice -- in fact, from his bio, he made a bunch of $$$ in industry (a computer start up). However, it's clear that his PhD was not necessary for his industry job. His claim about industry is that the jobs aren't good enough to warrant spending another ~5.5 years in school. I have issue with that claim (as I've noted above).

Andromeda wrote:I do think physics as a field does a terrible job advertising all the things you can do with the degree however- it's a wonderfully versatile one, just looking at what all my graduating classmates plan to do alone.


I agree. However, my major question is whether a PhD is really needed for many of these jobs. My guess is no.

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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby excel » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:07 pm

Regarding the matter of salaries, the author may have neglected an important point.

Our effective Phd income is not just our stipend, but stipend + tuition value, of which we essentially invest our tuition component in improving ourselves--"buying" technical skills, knowledge, and significant personal development (e.g., we improve our thinking process). The total (stipend+tuition) is comparable to starting salaries in industry for people who hold a BS. Now, one may invest a significant portion of one's salary to improve oneself or save it in the bank--the second choice can hardly be thought of as necessarily better. So, 5-6 years in graduate school is not a waste, even if we went to industry afterwards and even if our job did not actually require much of the knowledge we got in graduate school.

Similarly, for faculty positions, effective salary=salary+research grant, which would total to much more than the salary (for a succesful scientist). Only thing, the faculty member uses a chunk of his effective salary to do the research he is motivated about. Had he got the effective salary as salary, societal factors would have led him to invest it in excesses, instead of in research.

On the whole, however, I think the author does talk about issues that can negatively affect our lives in academia--and, I think, we should really acknowledge that these issues exist and be prepared to deal with them.

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Andromeda
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby Andromeda » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:08 pm

dlenmn- I suppose what I was driving at more is if your only goal with going to grad school is to land a job later then yes, a Physics PhD is not the road to take. Lots of better ones to do if you want a PhD, and you could get by well without a degree at all.

But my problem I was driving at is that seems like a terrible reason to go to grad school in the first place- ideally you should go because you think you would enjoy doing it. He sort of touches on this in the article but pretty much ignores it as a reason, let alone in the context of grad school. I mean, perhaps I'm in the minority but I'm in this because I think it's fun. I love learning about science and doing science and think I'll enjoy doing it for the next few years at least- if it turns out later I will do something else fine, but that doesn't change the fact that I want to get a PhD now. In that context, I don't see what's so wrong with getting one.

Also, as I implied earlier I think his conclusion about women in science is rather off the mark- if he's right, how does he explain that women in science varies by country, and how for example in Iran (a place typically rated very low on the woman's rights scale) the majority of physics majors are women? Won't deny for a second that lots of socially awkward guys come into physics (sorry gents!) but if it were that simple an issue we would've realized it by now.

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dlenmn
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dlenmn » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:19 pm

Andromeda wrote:ideally you should go because you think you would enjoy doing it. He sort of touches on this in the article but pretty much ignores it as a reason, let alone in the context of grad school.


I think he address this pretty directly in the "What about the excitement and fun of science?" section. Since you state that, "if your only goal with going to grad school is to land a job later then yes, a Physics PhD is not the road to take," your reason for the PhD is because you like physics. We're young so spending another 5 or 6 (or more) years in school doing something we like doesn't seem like a big deal. Perhaps it is a mistake, but we'll only realize it when we're older. After all, if the PhD isn't good for jobs, then all you'd be doing is pushing back entry in to the "real world" by however many years. If your priorities change (and they often do -- the author notes that kids/family become important) then this delay could be costly in hindsight.

In short, just because you like doing something, doesn't always mean that it's a good thing to do. This is the type of advice that older people often give, but we don't listen to. Perhaps we should. (Of course, some say "Do what you love" -- which has problems too).

Andromeda wrote:if he's right, how does he explain that women in science varies by country, and how for example in Iran (a place typically rated very low on the woman's rights scale) the majority of physics majors are women?


I don't claim to know why there are so few women doing science, but I'd have absolutely no trouble putting stock in a theory that fails to work in Iran. US vs Iran is such an apples to oranges comparison that nothing short of a Grand Unified Theory of Women in Science (GUTOWIS) will account for both countries. If you have such a theory, I'd be interested to hear it. However, since people can't even agree on a theory for the US, please understand my doubt that you have a plausible GUTOWIS. Let's stick to one country at a time (or maybe a group like "the west") for now.

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Andromeda
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby Andromeda » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:10 pm

dlenmn wrote:
Andromeda wrote:ideally you should go because you think you would enjoy doing it. He sort of touches on this in the article but pretty much ignores it as a reason, let alone in the context of grad school.


I think he address this pretty directly in the "What about the excitement and fun of science?" section. Since you state that, "if your only goal with going to grad school is to land a job later then yes, a Physics PhD is not the road to take," your reason for the PhD is because you like physics. We're young so spending another 5 or 6 (or more) years in school doing something we like doesn't seem like a big deal. Perhaps it is a mistake, but we'll only realize it when we're older. After all, if the PhD isn't good for jobs, then all you'd be doing is pushing back entry in to the "real world" by however many years. If your priorities change (and they often do -- the author notes that kids/family become important) then this delay could be costly in hindsight.

In short, just because you like doing something, doesn't always mean that it's a good thing to do. This is the type of advice that older people often give, but we don't listen to. Perhaps we should. (Of course, some say "Do what you love" -- which has problems too).


I know, and everyone has heard this at one point. But when else is there a time to be young and stupid? :wink: I'm being flippant I know but there really is no way to know RIGHT NOW what will happen when you graduate, so it's something to be taken with a grain of salt. Plus not like we're wanting a PhD in Film Studies or something really impossible to get a job with.

dlenmn wrote:
Andromeda wrote:if he's right, how does he explain that women in science varies by country, and how for example in Iran (a place typically rated very low on the woman's rights scale) the majority of physics majors are women?


I don't claim to know why there are so few women doing science, but I'd have absolutely no trouble putting stock in a theory that fails to work in Iran. US vs Iran is such an apples to oranges comparison that nothing short of a Grand Unified Theory of Women in Science (GUTOWIS) will account for both countries. If you have such a theory, I'd be interested to hear it. However, since people can't even agree on a theory for the US, please understand my doubt that you have a plausible GUTOWIS. Let's stick to one country at a time (or maybe a group like "the west") for now.


Check this out- Women as physics faculty by country. A little dated obviously, but clearly the US is behind even many Western nations- if you look at more recent studies btw at physics majors, several European countries like Ireland and Turkey have double the numbers found in the US. (Curiously I am a first generation Hungarian and have spent a lot of time wondering why they show such a huge percentage in that link- my guess is a combination of how everyone has to take three years of physics in high school and at the time you could only be a humanities major if your "class status" was acceptable.)

Interestingly, I have also read that the reason Iran has so many female physics majors is traditionally physics was never a "male" subject there. So there you go.

I don't pretend to have a brilliant idea as to why this is. Rather, my only point is the reasons behind it have to be complex which the article does not take into account at all.

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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby cato88 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:54 pm

Andromeda wrote:I know, and everyone has heard this at one point. But when else is there a time to be young and stupid? :wink: I'm being flippant I know but there really is no way to know RIGHT NOW what will happen when you graduate, so it's something to be taken with a grain of salt. Plus not like we're wanting a PhD in Film Studies or something really impossible to get a job with.


The author of the article is taking a utilitarian view to PhD your taking a romantic view theres no way youll ever agree with the author unless some aspect of the "real world" changes you. There is no way to know what will happen in the future but statistics are a good indicator of the future. If you detach romantic notions all you're left with is statistics. The statistics are simple, most PhDs will try to join academia while one professor trains many PhD grads leaving only a single spot when he retires. Its the pigeonhole principle in action.

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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dlenmn » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:04 pm

Andromeda wrote:Check this out- Women as physics faculty by country. A little dated obviously, but clearly the US is behind even many Western nations- if you look at more recent studies btw at physics majors, several European countries like Ireland and Turkey have double the numbers found in the US.


Interesting. Do you have links to the data about majors or graduate students (or faculty data that comes from after the fall of communism...)

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naseermk
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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby naseermk » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:58 pm

I heard it a while back that going for a Physics PhD is much like seeking a career in arts/entertainment.

People go into it mostly based on passion and if you do make it then....

I think its a good argument that if career security is one's main motive for a PhD, there are much better fields.

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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby lokai_ » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:55 am

I think its a good argument that if career security is one's main motive for a PhD, there are much better fields.


Realistically, what jobs offering career security (ie, both a "career" and "security") is a new B.S. in Physics likely get?

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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby dlenmn » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:44 pm

lokai_ wrote:Realistically, what jobs offering career security (ie, both a "career" and "security") is a new B.S. in Physics likely get?


How much job security are you looking for? Outside of academia, public school teacher (high school science in this case) may be the next most secure (schools don't typically downsize or go out of business, and they're often union jobs so you've got extra job security that way).

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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby cato88 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:19 am

Teachers Union are way too powerful. Horrible teachers get put in non teaching jobs instead of getting fired because of unions. Its too much job security.

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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby pqortic » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:17 pm

Today I heard from a friend in UC Irvine that there were more than 1100 applicants to Computer Science Department. its mainly for current economic depression in US. we'd have the same for Physics Department.
It really sucks. :?

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Re: The economy and grad school

Postby cato88 » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:01 pm

I think the physics community is not exposed to those huge variations in applications because there are less people and the grad school issue is more polarized in physics ie there is not that many people on the fence on grad school who went were offered a lucrative job that made them decide not too. In good economic times a lot of CS majors were offered jobs that they decided to take instead of pursuing grad school or just the prospect of such a job.

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naseermk
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: The economy and grad school

Postby naseermk » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:21 pm

I also do not think Physics will be affected by 'huge' variations compared to fields such as Engineering, Business, Law etc.

According to this article (http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/200 ... e-applica/), the uptick seems to be concentrated on areas such as Business, Law etc.

From an 'inside' contact at Minnesota, Engineering is seeing a huge uptick in applications as well. He also mentioned that their fiscal year begins in March, so, they cannot really gauge their financial status until then.

So, this year's admissions will vary from school to school depending on when their fiscal year begins.

happymonkey
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:47 am

Re: The economy and grad school

Postby happymonkey » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:53 pm

With my poor physics gre score and no interest in astronomy I'm borderline already. So I was crossing my right hand and now I have both crossed, and I'm an atheist. Hopefully no more global/national disasters and I'll have a chance, in that I applied to 10 universities.




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