General GRE practice harder?

mhazelm
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General GRE practice harder?

Postby mhazelm » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:50 pm

So, having just spent the last forever doing nothing but preparing for the Nov. 8th physics GRE (and classes and research and NSF applications,etc.), I planned to take the general GRE on the 11th of Nov. I figured I'm good at math and it will be SOO easy, no need to study...

then I just did the practice, and it was easy, but some stuff I can't remember, and some things I can't remember the tricks for. So I ended up doing badly (by physics standards) on the practice test that ETS sends... I'm just wondering - is that harder than the actual GRE, or not? Should I cancel my test, study for a month, then take? I want to get as close to 800 q as possible (don't really care about the verbal), but I think I'll be lucky to get 700 right now... any advice?

is it really important, or will they really only worry about the physics GRE?

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coreycwgriffin
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby coreycwgriffin » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:04 pm

I prepared for about a week for the general GRE. My scores before and after that week were about the same. The general GRE just doesn't feel like something you can really practice for. But, with more time, sure, you might be able to increase your score. As far as the difficulty of the actually test, yeah, thanks to the adaptive testing, it's exactly the same difficulty as the POWERPREP software ETS sends you.

cato88
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby cato88 » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:47 pm

Time helps so much for the verbal section.

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Helio
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby Helio » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:17 am

well i had the complete opposite experience this weekend when i took it... i must say it was harder then i expected... there was some stuff never covered in the review books like statistics (thank god i am a econ major as well) and the questions were worded even worse then in the practice books. i still think that some of the problems on the general gre are utterly wrong cause they change the range of numbers they consider from question to question it is so annoying... i got a 770 cause i was so confused sometimes by what they were asking

i just wonder how time on the verbal helps... *** am not a dictionary... at least i am international so it does not matter at all what i get...under 500... wuhu

dsperka
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby dsperka » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:03 am

I took the PowerPrep practice exams. On the quantitative section the first test I got 730, the second one I took a day later and I got 800. Then the next day I took the actual exam and the second question totally tripped me up and I ended up spending a long time on it (I don't know how long at least 5 min, maybe more). The test is harder than the PGRE in this sense because you cannot skip the question and come back to it with a fresh point of view. I ended up getting a 750, so pretty close to the average of my two practice tests. But I know I could get an 800 if I took it again. I guess my advice would be to do all the practice questions on the ets website, and both practice tests.

Also, don't be surprised if the people at the test center are total dicks to you and don't care at all about making your experience easy. If you go in to the test ready for that it won't put you in a bad mood so much if they are in fact as bad as they were at my test center.

aditi405
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby aditi405 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:47 am

I didn't find any similarity between the practice questions on powerprep and the actual GRE. Geometry and statistics questions (bar graphs and stuff) were really difficult on the actual test. I prepared for verbal for over a month and scored 570 and prepared for math for a week and got 790. one more reason why i din do well on verbal, dunno if this will help u but after the math section, i just gave up in the middle of the exam coz i thought i'll do bad on this neway so mite as well not focus on verbal. that cost me big time. so for any exam, dont ever give up till the last second, coz u never know.

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coreycwgriffin
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby coreycwgriffin » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:11 am

If you get in the upper 500's on verbal you're fine. That part is really friggen hard. Gradschoolshopper.com has an average verbal GRE score of like 580 for the schools I'm applying to.

mhazelm
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby mhazelm » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:37 pm

well, but why the f*** am I not scoring above 700 on the math?? I can't figure it out. either I run out of time, or I misread the problem... but I keep scoring ~650 on the maths part. And I'm usually quite good at math!

maybe I am just stupid. :(

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secander2!
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby secander2! » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:50 pm

have you already taken the test? are you still trying to decide whether to cancel or not? Personally, I usually do better when I take the test for real, so there might still be hope!!!

mhazelm
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby mhazelm » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:48 pm

I got mostly through it... felt like it was going well.. then hit a question that I wasn't sure about... I panicked, like major panicked. I used to get test anxiety like this. I thought I was over it. But yeah, big time panic attack (you know, where your head kind of spins and your heartrate goes up by 90). I wasted about 3 minutes just being panicked. So I just canceled it. I think if I actually just review some of the ancient math from high school it will be fine. The problems are ridiculously easy, but I have a bad tendency to jump in without reading the details (so missing things) and I've forgotten some of the tactics.

I think too that I'm just overwhelmed, having my most difficult semester in coursework (max credits, all graduate and undergrad phyx and math), the physics GRE, newly married, research, applications for scholarships, NSF fellowship, yata yata. I can be hard on myself when I fail... on other hand, scoring below 700 on the general quant stuff really freaks me out, and now I'm worried... what if I'm not smart enough to be a physicist... :( it's all I want, and I just can't imagine any other career.

has anyone else ever had this experience (i.e. you were stressed and did badly on something that you know you should've aced?), and still made it into a graduate program? I think I would die without physics, and if I can't even score high enough on the stupid easy general gre... I don't know. Of course, I thought I did fine on the physics gre. Go figure.

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secander2!
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby secander2! » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:31 pm

Don't worry, the test is definitely "studiable". I know that with the SAT, I took one practice test a day for a week and brought my quantitative up to a 800. The GRE is the same stuff so I'm sure that with a small bit of studying, you can ace it!!! Good luck juggling the GRE study with the advanced coursework... I feel your pain!

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coreycwgriffin
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby coreycwgriffin » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:48 pm

Two days before I took the general GRE I got a 610 on the math part (with people distracting me a little, but still). On the actual exam I got a 740.

dsperka
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby dsperka » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:31 pm

Is it possible that ETS made the math section a little harder? It seems like there are a lot of people with high 700's compared to last year where everyone on this board had 800. It might make sense if 25% of physics applicants were getting perfect scores that it should be a little harder.

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Helio
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby Helio » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:54 pm

dsperka wrote:Is it possible that ETS made the math section a little harder? It seems like there are a lot of people with high 700's compared to last year where everyone on this board had 800. It might make sense if 25% of physics applicants were getting perfect scores that it should be a little harder.


no it seems to be a hit and mis this year. one of my econ friends said she got really lucky and her stuff was easy, just like the practice books. i got unlucky and had a hard one. i am just not sure maybe they change the hardness according to major now. all a bit weird. and not everybody got an 800... there were couple with sub-800 and 700.

dsperka
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby dsperka » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:05 am

Yes, but I haven't seen one person this year revealing that they got an 800. And the fact that the tests are so hit and miss makes me wonder how they can tell you what percentile you are scoring in if everyone has a different test. I am not a big fan of the general gre if you can't tell.

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Helio
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby Helio » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:53 am

dsperka wrote:Yes, but I haven't seen one person this year revealing that they got an 800. And the fact that the tests are so hit and miss makes me wonder how they can tell you what percentile you are scoring in if everyone has a different test. I am not a big fan of the general gre if you can't tell.


i am not the biggest fan of standardized test is any shape or form if they are solely multiple choice. i have taken IGCSE (british standardized test) and it is better cause 75% of the tests are written parts, so I was very comfortable with it and got high grades. The APs have written parts so I did well on those, but as soon as it comes to MC-only tests i see red.

It is pointless to test "concepts" if you know the concepts, but get it wrong cause you didn't carry a negative sign through, you don't know that ln(2.5) is off the top of your head, you don't know some math tricks. It is not testing your ability it is simple pointing out that you are careful in stressful situation or that you are a human calculator. I know brilliant people who would screw up the GRE because they are very thorough in their work. life is not about speed, but it is about if you are correct. who cares if you can get the answer after 1.7 minutes or it takes you 10. you get the answer for christ sake, it is your time not theirs.


My 2 cents

dsperka
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby dsperka » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:57 am

Agreed. And even as much as the physics gre doesn't really predict who will be successful in graduate school and what not, I think that it is a fair test. Everyone takes the same test (two different versions, but you know) and its long enough that one screw won't affect your score, and you can skip questions and come back to them, etc. Maybe this is just because I feel I did well on it.

mhazelm
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby mhazelm » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:06 am

Aha! well, I took it with a friend today, and she called me when she got done. It seems that our tests were very similar. She said that after her verbal she had a REALLY hard math section followed by a more normal (like the practice test) math one. So now I am wondering if I had kept going, maybe it would have been fine. I am thinking this hard section was the experimental, and that's where I panicked and left...

darned ETS, making us do their research. It would be okay with me if they'd just put the research section last, rather than messing with our heads.

Anyway, thanks for your posts. They have cheered me up again - there IS hope! I'm not just dumb, I swear!! I'm taking it again a few days after my final exams, when I'll have gotten more than 4 hours of sleep... plus, I can work on my vocab between now and then, so it will work out. Hopefully.

Frankly, it is really absurd to give a bunch of physicists such a dumb test. Obviously, we know how to do math. I use mostly tensors and calculus (little bit of group theory) in my day-to-day physics research (which I really have no issues with!), and just haven't even thought about things like parallelograms and "how many prime numbers between 101 and 201" kind of issues for about 8 years... why would we? We have much more interesting problems. As for showing graduate schools that we're capable of writing, why not just ask us to submit a writing sample with our application? And the physics GRE should be indicative enough that one can manipulate 1/a + 1/b.

It just seems ludicrous. They want an easy way to weed people out, but unfortunately, standardized tests aren't really an unbiased method of accomplishing this.

abeboparebop
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby abeboparebop » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:17 am

I got an 800 on the general GRE quant but I've always tested well on that sort of thing.

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Helio
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby Helio » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:27 am

dsperka wrote:Agreed. And even as much as the physics gre doesn't really predict who will be successful in graduate school and what not, I think that it is a fair test. Everyone takes the same test (two different versions, but you know) and its long enough that one screw won't affect your score, and you can skip questions and come back to them, etc. Maybe this is just because I feel I did well on it.


Well i have to be honest, when what i hear from the Nov. 8th test and compare it to my Oct. 18th test I must say there were a lot of difference... Nov. 8th was compared to 0177 and Oct. 18th was compared to 9277... i dunno how accurate that is, but i will see when i get my score.

Yes the physics gre is fairer because you can go back on a "clear" mind, but i am still not very positive on whole test. i have to say i am not a good test taker when it comes to MC-only i had them it for years in middle school, and high school but I always outperformed on the written portion or just barely scrapped by sometimes. I have seen the true short-falling of MC-only tests. They are usually written to squeeze as much information as possible into the smallest space and it creates a lot of confusion and easy mistakes.

On another note, I hate when people use the correlation between qual exam results to the physics gre score as a test of how well you do in grad school. You passed your quals, who the *** cares what you got, as long as you passed. It is the content of you thesis, how much you published, what research projects you have done, etc. that decides if you were successful or not. What physics is about research, what you do, if it brings us along, not getting a 990 on the physics gre or 100% on your qual test.

I see the PGRE as a sign of mistrust among the physics community. In all honesty, why do we still care about this test (being one of the few subjects that has it) when the chemists have moved on from it (not the UCs, but who really sees them as a voice for chemistry). It is like saying... you people outside of my little castle called university X are all stupid and do not teach the right stuff. Nearly all schools use the same books nowadays, so you can judge pretty well what people know and what not. Who in EM does not use Griffiths? Who does not use University Physics, or Halliday's Physics for the intro series? Who in QM uses not Griffiths or Graswhataever? You know exactly what comes in these books, you exactly what to expect.

I am sry about the rant, but I feel insulted, when I have done research for nearly 2.5 years now in multiple fields, I have done well in my classes, worked to squeeze in a second degree, or to put it better did everything you are supposed to do, and to be hindered by the hideous idea of a standardized tests that has very little (if even anything) to do with what I will do in grad school.

rohit
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby rohit » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:00 am

while aggreeing with the overall sentiment expressed by Helio, i have come round to the view that these tests (and exams in general) are something of a necessary evil. This is so because a few applicants are to be selected amongst many. Now one could say research experience should override these tests. But what about those who have not got the opportunity to do research. Should they not be given a chance? Thats why a judicious mixture of tests , GPA , research , references etc. ought to be used. But what if there are not enuff seats to accomodate all good applicants? This world sucks ! :evil:

dsperka
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby dsperka » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:24 am

rohit is right. The good thing about having to jump through all these hoops is that if you are deficient in one category, there are many ways to make up for it. Like for me, I don't have the greatest GPA so the PGRE was important to me and I studied for that thing for like two months. I'm hoping for a high score that will offset my GPA. Now there will be people who say "oh the PGRE does not test how well you know blah blah..." Well maybe not, but surely it does test something, and its a way to show that you do have an understanding of physics. On the other hand, if you have a high GPA its my opinion that you don't really need to do super well on the GRE (If got 850 on the pGRE I would gladly trade it for a 750 and a 3.9 GPA).

To bring it back home though, I really think (hope) that the general GRE is about the least important part of your application. I can't imagine anyone getting in somewhere based solely on there strong general GRE, nor can I see anyone being kept out based solely on their lackluster general GRE, only if it is below some departmental minimum. I don't even think it would be looked at for a tiebreaker between two similar people, there are other ways the committees can break those ties (SOP, research experience... these things can be similar but never EXACTLY the same).

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secander2!
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby secander2! » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:48 am

I guess I'm a bit naturally biased against the PGRE due to the fact that my GPA, research, and letters of recommendation are a good bit stronger than what I expect to get on the PGRE. Still, I have to say that I somewhat reluctantly agree that the PGRE has got it's place... to do well on the PGRE requires one of two things: a strong innate grasp of basic physics OR a lot of hard work studying. Both of these are things which graduate admissions committees can legitimately desire in a candidate. Now of course, you can do somewhat poorly on the PGRE (like I did last year) and still be a very smart person (like I'm probably not) who would do far better in grad school (which I hopefully will) than somebody with a 990, that's why admissions committees look at our grades and research too; but the point remains, if you ace the PGRE, you're either a really hard worker or a innate problem solver... kudos to you!!!

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Helio
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby Helio » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:12 pm

How is it that the US (well okay Canada) is the only place that seems to love these standardized test for everything? I come from Germany and if you tell them about the idea they just smile at you. How do countries like the UK, Germany, France, Japan and what not do it? They require a Master with a thesis to be accepted to a PhD. They force you to do research. I know it might not be as easily available as there (did i Just really say that), but there are REUs and god knows what out there which you could use for a Master thesis. I mean it says it is supposed to be something that you work 6 months, but when you use some sort of NSF funding to create such a program you can easily achieve that. But the problem is that people will not work without pay (lets just say tuition is waived) at least that is i the sense I get.

Ohh well I guess I am just against it cause it is something I don't want to believe in as a gauge of what i can do. I just simply can't. I mean at least make it optional and use it for those people that need it and not as a method to punish those that might be slow, have text anxiety, disabilities, or those that have done everything right except for this test. Still i agree with secander2! if you can do it kudos to you.

This world doesn't suck... as my high school teacher said: Life's a bitch, you pay to get fucked

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quizivex
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby quizivex » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:09 pm

dsperka wrote:Is it possible that ETS made the math section a little harder? It seems like there are a lot of people with high 700's compared to last year where everyone on this board had 800. It might make sense if 25% of physics applicants were getting perfect scores that it should be a little harder.

Nah. A given score is supposed to represent the same level of performance regardless of which version of the test was taken. That's why they say a "700 earned in 2006 is equivalent to a 700 in 1999." In fact, this is how the math section came to be useless... We may think that a test where everyone in a science field scores high on and 8% of the people get perfect scores is a poorly made test, but when they first made the GRE (same with the SAT), I think I heard they wanted the mean to be 500 and the std. dev. to be 100. But over the years, people were just better at the math. So making the test harder would be nice so that the section provides a sensible assessment of a student's math skills and the distribution is more informative, but they wouldn't do this since it no longer would preserve the consistency of the test.

Don't anyone worry about not getting an 800 on the QGRE. A score slightly less will look like you just made an error on a problem or two, which anyone can do and it won't matter, since your ability to do physics requires you to have mastered such easy math, so your GPA/PGRE outweigh the QGRE completely regardless of what you got on it. But yes, scoring waaaaay below 800 may raise some eyebrows so definitely review your pie charts lol :wink:

Helio wrote:no it seems to be a hit and mis this year. one of my econ friends said she got really lucky and her stuff was easy, just like the practice books. i got unlucky and had a hard one.

Using the practice books is helpful, but only for the purpose of practicing individual questions. As a whole, it gives an unrealistic sense of the test you will take. On the paper tests, there's a uniform spread of easy, medium and hard questions, so a strong student will breeze through the easy and medium questions and may be challenged in the last few hard questions (maybe 1/3 of the time). But the adaptive nature of the computerized test makes it that if you start doing well, the problems will get harder quite quickly, so you'll be spending most of the test time answering harder questions. So if you're used to pacing yourself through a paper test, you may find yourself running out of time on the computerized one. For many of us in physics, the math section (28 questions in 45 min I think), even the "hard" questions are fairly easy and the time limit is IMHO generous so it's not a problem. But for the verbal, 30 questions in 30 minutes I think, it was really tough when the questions got hard, especially having to read those passages, and when you're getting close to the end of the section, you might say "I can finish the last 5 questions in 5 minutes" thinking you're got silly analogies and sentence completions, but then a passage pops up. So anyway keep in mind the powerprep tests are the most accurate feel of the testing experience.

Daversauce
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby Daversauce » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:45 pm

@ the OP, I got just under a 700 quant when I took the quant cold turkey after having graduated and just being in the work force for about 10 months.

I downloaded the ETS materials, used a cheap prep site (800 score or something?) And just did problems like crazy. It was pretty discouraging at first. My scores actually went down in the first week, but then after a bit of practice things seemed to improve.

I'd recommend varied resources for problems and studying, especially make use of the math pdf that is available from the ETS. It will identify where you need work, and perhaps more importantly you will build confidence.

Then once your confidence is back, take the actual GRE powerprep test. I got a 780 or so the day before the test and then a 790 on the actual test. I'm sure I could have got an 800 but the 10 point difference sure as hell isn't worth enduring that test again.

casaubon
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby casaubon » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:58 pm

My tips:

Writing: Don't overlook this. I think it's easy to dismiss this part as not very important. Having not written a timed essay in years, I had to remember all those tricks from high school. Make sure to ready for the "analyze an argument" essay. I hadn't written an essay like that before, so I spent some time reviewing basic argument concepts, and logic "vocab" type stuff to make it sound like I knew what I was talking about. Luckily mine turned out to be less of an "argument" and more of a poorly designed experiment, so I was able to rip it apart. Seriously, making a claim without any control samples, what?

Math: It's not bad, but you need to spend some time reviewing all the material that is tested. Get your brain in SAT mode. These questions are totally arbitraty and free of context. Somebody at ETS just made them up to trick you. Approach them that way. You are shooting for perfect so put most of your emphasis here.

Vocab: You could spend months studying vocab, but I don't think they would be worth it. Read broadly instead. On the test: You either know it or you don't, and can figure that out in about 20 seconds. Don't dwell on the analogies/antonyms. Save time for the reading passages.

I'd say a week or two of prep should be sufficient, with a day or two of cramming math right beforehand.

cato88
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby cato88 » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:31 pm

secander2! wrote:I guess I'm a bit naturally biased against the PGRE due to the fact that my GPA, research, and letters of recommendation are a good bit stronger than what I expect to get on the PGRE. Still, I have to say that I somewhat reluctantly agree that the PGRE has got it's place... to do well on the PGRE requires one of two things: a strong innate grasp of basic physics OR a lot of hard work studying. Both of these are things which graduate admissions committees can legitimately desire in a candidate. Now of course, you can do somewhat poorly on the PGRE (like I did last year) and still be a very smart person (like I'm probably not) who would do far better in grad school (which I hopefully will) than somebody with a 990, that's why admissions committees look at our grades and research too; but the point remains, if you ace the PGRE, you're either a really hard worker or a innate problem solver... kudos to you!!!

For the life of me could someone explain why a calculator is not allowed. It is for AP Physics. You dont really need one but occasionally it helps and I would hope part of the PGRE is not an arithmetic race.

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secander2!
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby secander2! » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:43 am

I guess ETS is just evil :twisted: The other possibility is that they want the future physicists to remain proficient at conducting the sort of "back-of-the-napkin" calculations which are our hallmark :D

cato88
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby cato88 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:35 am

secander2! wrote:I guess ETS is just evil :twisted: The other possibility is that they want the future physicists to remain proficient at conducting the sort of "back-of-the-napkin" calculations which are our hallmark :D

In real life an extra minute or two doesnt matter as much. At least until people have muggings that could be prevented by solving for the critical mass for U.

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secander2!
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Re: General GRE practice harder?

Postby secander2! » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:47 am

cato88 wrote:At least until people have muggings that could be prevented by solving for the critical mass for U.



hahaha :D




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