double stipends question

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stardust
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double stipends question

Postby stardust » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:32 pm

What do people think of the following situation? It really happened.

A foreign student gets a fellowship from their home country which pays $15,000 per
year for living for 5 years for graduate study in the US under the condition that when they are done, they go home to their country and work for 2 years. The person took
the money and didn't tell their US school that they had this outside fellowship and
collected a second stipend from the US school. The person lived in a luxury
apartment and gave some of the money to a sibling back home to fix up a house.
The person then married an American and never went back to work for the two years.
The funding organization then sent letters that the $75,000 has to be repaid. The
person changed addresses in the US so many times and became "lost" to the
funding agency, and never paid the money back.

So, what do people think? The question is: is this completely unethical OR is it the
same as if your parents gave you outside money and there is no dilemma? And
what other comments do you have?

physicsdude
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Re: double stipends question

Postby physicsdude » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:46 pm

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Last edited by physicsdude on Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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coreycwgriffin
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Re: double stipends question

Postby coreycwgriffin » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:42 pm

physicsdude wrote:
stardust wrote:What do people think of the following situation? It really happened.

So, what do people think? The question is: is this completely unethical OR is it the
same as if your parents gave you outside money and there is no dilemma? And
what other comments do you have?


Obviously, we should not let the damn foreigners into our great country.


I laughed at this and kind of agree. But in all seriousness, it is pretty unethical to not declare the outside fellowship to the graduate school, and also really unfair to make the promise to work at home for two years and then completely flake on it.

LucasWillis
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Re: double stipends question

Postby LucasWillis » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:49 am

I'm pretty sure that this is beyond unethical and downright illegal. You are required to declare all outside fellowships to your graduate institution, and as your enrollment is a contractual agreement, he could be severely punished by the school the he attended. There are plenty of cases of this happening for undergraduates. If the school determines that you have withheld information they can sue you, expel you, or even take away your degree.
If I were this person, I would be careful who I told (although it seems he has told enough people for it to make it to this forum!).
I'm truly surprised that you had to ask if this is unethical! He both defrauded his graduate institution and the funding agency in his home country for the added comfort of a luxury apartment. Despicable!

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twistor
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Re: double stipends question

Postby twistor » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:34 am

Let's face it, his home country would have just spent it on candy anyway.

FNR
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Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:48 pm

Re: double stipends question

Postby FNR » Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:00 pm

stardust wrote:The person took
the money and didn't tell their US school that they had this outside fellowship and
collected a second stipend from the US school.
The person then married an American and never went back to work for the two years.
The funding organization then sent letters that the $75,000 has to be repaid. The
person changed addresses in the US so many times and became "lost" to the
funding agency, and never paid the money back.

So, what do people think? The question is: is this completely unethical OR is it the
same as if your parents gave you outside money and there is no dilemma? And
what other comments do you have?



Unethical? You bet! At least the one should repay the $75,000 back. It sounds like a white collar crime for me.... :?

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grae313
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Re: double stipends question

Postby grae313 » Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:59 am

stardust wrote:What do people think of the following situation? It really happened.

A foreign student gets a fellowship from their home country which pays $15,000 per
year for living for 5 years for graduate study in the US under the condition that when they are done, they go home to their country and work for 2 years. The person took
the money and didn't tell their US school that they had this outside fellowship and
collected a second stipend from the US school. The person lived in a luxury
apartment and gave some of the money to a sibling back home to fix up a house.
The person then married an American and never went back to work for the two years.
The funding organization then sent letters that the $75,000 has to be repaid. The
person changed addresses in the US so many times and became "lost" to the
funding agency, and never paid the money back.

So, what do people think? The question is: is this completely unethical OR is it the
same as if your parents gave you outside money and there is no dilemma? And
what other comments do you have?


Um... are you serious? The guy lied to his University, lied to the people from his home country, stole $75,000 and is now a fugitive. And you are wondering if this is unethical? You frighten me.

stardust
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:15 pm

Re: double stipends question

Postby stardust » Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:30 pm

Yes, I too thought it unethical and horrendous. I didn't want to bias anyone before they answered.
But the contrary arguments I was give were:
a) it's the same as if the person's parents gave them money, i.e. its all outside money so there's no ethical dilemma
b) it's the same as defaulting on a student and American's have done that so it's not a foreign issue
c) it only helps the home country to have people in the US
So, I was waiting to see if people thought that way at all. Plus one foreign student at the time told me not to
say anything because this was rampant.

I wouldn't exactly call the person a fugitive. Once they became an American, I don't think they were subject
to the laws of other countries.

nonick
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Re: double stipends question

Postby nonick » Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:57 pm

stardust wrote:Once they became an American, I don't think they were subject
to the laws of other countries.


So you can go to another country and steal money and they won't prosecute you because you are American?
Everybody is subject to the law, no matter what their citizenship is.

I know that I might be way to big of a moralist, but I believe that the institution that this person got his PhD from should be informed of the whole issue and this person should get stripped of his PhD. He clearly doesn't deserve it.

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grae313
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Re: double stipends question

Postby grae313 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:22 pm

stardust wrote:Yes, I too thought it unethical and horrendous. I didn't want to bias anyone before they answered.
But the contrary arguments I was give were:
a) it's the same as if the person's parents gave them money, i.e. its all outside money so there's no ethical dilemma
b) it's the same as defaulting on a student and American's have done that so it's not a foreign issue
c) it only helps the home country to have people in the US
So, I was waiting to see if people thought that way at all. Plus one foreign student at the time told me not to
say anything because this was rampant.

I wouldn't exactly call the person a fugitive. Once they became an American, I don't think they were subject
to the laws of other countries.


stardust, I apologize for my misunderstanding.

a) morality and immorality is not defined by the legal system, just poorly reflected by it. Just because an action has no legal repercussions does not make it moral. Stealing money, from your parents or otherwise, is unethical.

b) it is not at all the same as defaulting on a loan. a person who cannot pay their loans admits this to their creditors and faces legal consequences. If this person faced their creditors, they would go to jail.

c) the only way this benefits the home country is that the liar and thief is here and not there.

:)

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twistor
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Re: double stipends question

Postby twistor » Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:37 am

Oh ***, you ARE alive!

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quizivex
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Re: double stipends question

Postby quizivex » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:17 am

Woo hoo. All of us back in the same thread! (except RG :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: )

stardust
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:15 pm

Re: double stipends question

Postby stardust » Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:33 am

@nonick

I'm thinking about how to officially report this, since there is the larger issue of lots of people doing this
rather than just one person and it could add up to millions. One problem is I'm not able to locate the
granting agency from the foreign country, so if I report it will the university track down the granting
agency is one question.

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grae313
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Re: double stipends question

Postby grae313 » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:46 pm

quizivex wrote:Woo hoo. All of us back in the same thread! (except RG :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: )


long live RG




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